RE: [sig-nir] RE: [sig-policy] Regarding the no consensus decisionofPROP
As observing many debate in the list so far, I listed few things that people
concern regarding
the SIG decision making :
1 Who make decision : Chair / Co-Chair
2 When : 8 Weeks after AMM
3 What is consensus : An opinion or position reached by a group (I re-use
Philip's definition)
4 How to decide (methodology):
There is no official policy document addressed that. If one argue
something wrong in the PDP
or Chair/Co-Chair decision, then we should convey the requirements into
the policy document,
which provide the public a transparant and legitimate guiding principle.
I personally appreciate
that if we can start working on the practice. APNIC21 call for proposal
was announced, I certainly
welcome you can enlighten a better way to improve the process.
Best Regards
Kenny Huang
Chair, Policy SIG
huangk at alum dot sinica dot edu
-----Original Message-----
From: sig-policy-bounces at lists dot apnic dot net
[mailto:sig-policy-bounces at lists dot apnic dot net] On Behalf Of Jeff Williams
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:23 PM
To: Izumi Okutani
Cc: sig-nir at lists dot apnic dot net; sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net
Subject: Re: [sig-nir] RE: [sig-policy] Regarding the no consensus
decisionofPROP-028-v001
Izumi and all,
Well your remarks comments below did not clarify anything regarding
consensus or if a consensus on this proposal exists or existed. In fact,
your remarks and/or comments only further confused or obviscated if a
consensus existed on this proposal, and what constitutes a consensus and how
such is determined.
If you cannot tell or know how many participants are on this forum how can a
consensus be determined with any degree of accuracy? Or even if you did
know such, how do you know for a certantity if a consensus, general, rough
or otherwise exists? How is such determined? Is it just your best guess,
or what exactly?
As I recall there was much and many objection to this proposal...
Izumi Okutani wrote:
> Dear Chanki,
>
> > I've been participating and monitoring this policy developing
> > process, and I would like to point out some of the errors for our
> > future process. This is my personal view, and it has nothing to do with
my company.
> > Your comments are welcomed.
> >
> > First, the decision making of chair.
> > Before the decision was announced, there were internal debate among
> > some of NIR members regarding the meaning of "substantial
> > objection". Is
> > 4:4:1(against: : for : conditional) opinions that were submitted
> > during public comment period substantial objection? Some member
> > asked for more time to have discussion on the validity of objections
> > and discuss more if they were substantial objection. However, the
> > chair ignored some members opinion and send final decision.(My
> > feeling toward this action is the chair lost its neutral position
> > and was pushing toward predetermined course.) Sending final announcement
while debates were going on is definitely wrong.
>
> It was exactly for keeping the neutral position that I went ahead with
> the annoucement. For an open and fair process, it would not be proper
> for the Chair to discuss consensus with the proposer before making the
> announcement in order to maintain impartiality. The Chair must
> consider the situation of the whole community, as well as the proposer.
>
> In making the consensus decision, Chair discusses with the Co-Chair
> and decides whether there was a consensus on the proposal or not.
>
> The Chair and the Co-Chair may chose to consult other parties and take
> in the advice, but the final decision is their choice. I have
> discussed this matter with David, and also informally with some other
> SIG chair/co-chair, and the decision was made as a result of this.
>
> > Specially without defining the meaning of "substantial objection"
> > and without discussing if the objections raised were valid and
> substantial. (How
> > can four objections out of 1,000 members be substantial?)
>
> I understand that you have a different view about "substantial
> objection" from me, and I have discussed this with you so many times.
>
> Your arguement about 4 objections out of 1,000 members is valid if the
> membership vote was taken. In that case, I agree with your point.
>
> Since we are not taking a vote here, and since it is a consensus based
> decision, it is not simply counting the number of comments for vs the
> number of comments against.
>
> The whole idea of this process is to reach a general agreement through
> discussions, so the content of the discussions is an important factor
> in making the decision. As you can see from the state of the mailing
> list, we are still having very active discussions over this.
>
> Mailing list discussions are not suitable for counting numbers because
> not all 1,000 members subscribe to the mailing list and you really
> never know how many of them are actually active. If you want to count
> the numbers, voting is more effective, which certainly could be an option.
> Perhaps, you can make a proposal at the next meeting if you prefer
> that kind of process.
>
> The reality is, for this particular proposal, we are following the
> consensus based decision making process, not the membership vote. So,
> I have followed the logics based on this process in making my decision.
>
> > Second, the decision of chair.
> > The decision of chair contain technical error. Like I mentioned
> > earlier, the chair only observed public comment period and concluded
> > that "There is no clear general consensus for the proposal." The
> > chair totally ignored previous consensus among NIR SIG and the
> > meeting result of AMM. If the chair is to make the final call, she
> > should have taken whole process into consideration as well as public
> > comment period. She didn't, and the result was totally opposite.
>
> I do note that there was a consensus at NIR SIG and also at AMM.
>
> However, the consensus at NIR SIG and AMM can be reversed if there are
> substantial objections. That is the whole point on having the comment
> period.
>
> Even though consensus is reached at the meeting, substantial
> objections on the mailing list is an indication that not enough
> discussions took place at the meeting.
>
> I hope this helps to clarify things for you.
>
> Izumi Okutani
>
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Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 134k members/stakeholders strong!)
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