O, yes... this still is getting off the way from
an definitive understanding about NIR! My comments inserted: Desi Valli wrote: Kusumba S >>> Example not applicable to demonstrate the cause / need / relevance of NIR. So, ignored for instance. Nothing of a 'specific' country can ever be attributed for a discussion pertaining to resources managed globally and also, no specific country cannot have those reasons that are non-relevant for a policy or decision that significantly impacts regional / global operations.Hi Philip, 1. I understood your concern. I know it's an International forum in which I shouldn't have expressed the regional strategies of Cisco.:-) Every vendor has their own India strategy (indianizing). For an example, Mobile equipment manufacturers "invented" the service model per connection in India. Airtel initiated this model in the name of outsourcing. Every other guys followed, in fact took this outside India too. Now, none of the mobile operators buy their Mobile network equipments, they just go for a revenue share with the manufacturers who is responsible to import, install, maintain etc. Thus the capital investment required to buy these high value equipments are not needed anymore. Hence forth cost implication over the charge per minute is altered. The benefit is transferred to common man - less than 1 US cent per minute. I can pick up many more examples, but those may not be contextual always. Kusumba S >>> IP address fee / PAF is controlled by Policy and not by mandate. So, if APNIC has excess funds (I wish!), it cannot still reduce the resource fee. So is, I said in my earlier mail, since NIXI is having surplus cash, will the IP addresses given Free in India or atleast will they subsidize the cost by over 80%???2. Yes, your suggestion is implemented at different stages, the surplus are used to reduce the price. The price of Interconnection to exchange is reduced drastically, the prices of domains are reduced to the levels of 70+%. Kusumba S >>> APNIC would need to probably setup couple of Data Centers across the World! Further, does anyone understand that NIR does not host infrastructure. It is an administrative function body and allocations will be still done by APNIC and all the updates must be done on the APNIC database. Does this qualify to say that one really need to establish that there is a capability to run NIR, when there is no understanding of NIR?3. Exactly you are right, Internet abhors single point failure - Lets create NIRs so that there is no single point of failure, at APNIC:-) APNIC --> Would you let us know as how many times in the last few years APNIC infrastructure collapsed and that you put entire community out of network? Kusumba S >>> So, how does this change incase if NIR is India? You still need to update your records on APNIC. Ohhhh... so someone does need a control of the resources!4. Control: For example, many of the ISPs still mention their central office as the address of entire pool of IPs. So when you look for who is, location within India cannot be traced. Even with traceroute applications like visualroute the IP will terminate at a wrong location - Security issue. Another example, underutilisation. Since the same authority gets report on actual subscriber base etc of the ISPs, as ISPs are licensed operators in India, better distribution of resource based on subscriber base could be done. Community --> There is a watch officer here who is going to match the number of IP addresses you have to the number of subscribers and then if you have more, you will be deprived of the resources. This is the dangerous situation one should be worried about. One could always fill-in the assignment window or update the APNIC database and demonstrate the usage! We are not into "Police'ng", we are into "Policy'ng". Kusumba S >>> Not applicable!5. The requirements/applications of the old world (Communication, transactions, commerce etc.,) are fulfilled better by using new technologies. There is no change in requirement, it all remains same. The old world remains there as is. We all want to talk, use old phone or new phone it's all about comfort. Briefly about an Indian way of old/new world - In many part of the Indian societies, even today many will suggest to go around few temples and pray when a woman is not getting pregnant. People misunderstand that it is about god and even make jokes. In reality if you do a research (which I have done along with few other similar interested people), the pillars, walls, beams, ceilings around these temples are made with lots of sculptures of different sexual depictions like in kamasutra. The idea is to make people learn about these when there were no technology or even paper to talk teach about these. That was used as a training material. Even today application remains the same. Today the technology made the "onwall" sex education into "online" sex education. At the end of the day old world remains there intact. Kusumba S >>> Point 6 "managing" is contradicting with Point 4 "control". "Managing" combined with "Control" will lead to disaster!6. I agree, Internet grew because of International cooperation. Formation of individual networks, and their connect to Internet were never denied. Thus making the world's only borderless world. However Internet is successful primarily because of letting it to be built in the manner what everyone wanted to build. It's an open world, everyone has their say/voice. There is no controlling body, but only managing bodies. All members of this ecosystem should have their representation and say. Otherwise it cannot be termed as cooperation. Make the NIR to have our representation and say. Kusumba S >>> No applicable reference.7. I agree, Organisations managing ccTLDs were doing even before ICANN formation. But ARPANET, let the regional authorities to manage If I understand rightly, it was way back in 1984, when DNS system was standardised. It was top-down. Kusumba S >>> Great! Fantastic! Marvelous! Hats-off!, but honestly, not applicable in the context.8. What NIR actually meant to do, from an Indian context? Instead of giving a direct answer, I can say if we understand the ground reality and if we are able to understand the human touch with technology the following (link) is what someone could do... be it Indian or any one. We call these as innovations. Just understand the ground reality when you make a policy/procedure/organisation/technology etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzKmGTVmqJs&feature=related (See part 2 also) I don't think it would have been possible to make such an invention for the biggies of the world for just a cost of 350$. See the sequence, born in a small town in Gujarat, understanding the ground reality of common man (physical life) he invented something that the world says "wow", but he stands up to the world and says everything will be part of opensource. That's because he knows the common man better, especially of the developing and under developed countries. Watch the video and see how many times he refers India. That's what the technology can do, if the ground need is understood, more than 1.4 mA$. Kusumba S >>> "Foot on street" or "Feet on Internet"! When the Internet is "borderless" where is the need for any "foot" on street! Wish, one could run putting a Cisco box in Japan or Russia and run network in India...not practical! But IP addresses can always be allocated from Australia but used in India! Honestly, I see "pulse" but not "people" here.APNIC might be doing already all that what NIR would do technically and procedurally, but it can never do many that only foot on street can do. To an analogy, in today's technological world, I don't see a need for Cisco opening up an office in India. They could have done it from their headquarters and distribution network. But the purpose is "Understand the ground reality (Pulse of the people)" and make the strategy accordingly. Kusumba S >>> I still don't see a simple reason for existance of NIR when the very "physical world" is out of order at this moment!Hope now many would have understood the pulse of the people. We all might use the virtual world for many purpose, but we live in the physical world. Its important to consider the needs of this physical world. Greetings, Kusumba S Regards, Desi Valli -----Original Message----- From: Philip Smith [mailto:pfs at cisco dot com] Sent: 21 November 2009 03:08 To: Desi Valli Cc: apnic-talk at apnic dot net Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] [Apnic-announce] Application for India NIR - Call for Comments Hi Desi, Desi Valli said the following on 20/11/09 18:17 :Cisco goes even to the level of 85% discount from their GLP. Impossible to listen to those numbers in westerns countries.Do you have any references for this? Do other vendors do the same thing?_Regarding Cross funding between IX/NIR_ NIXI is a NPO and it is mandated that the organisation cannot carry profits. That implies the fact that the surplus should be better utilised.If there is a surplus, it suggests that NIXI is making too much money. Why not reduce the prices instead, given that 'Indianisation' is so important?I disagree to the suggestion that things are to be separated. Internet is a field of convergence. No technology other than IP has enabled convergence in all possible areas thus improving productivity and optimal utilisation of resources & infrastructures. Suggesting to have independent operations, funding & resources of IX, registry and NIR, defeats many very purposes of Internet itself.Internet also abhors single points of failure. ;-)_Regarding the benefits for the Indian Internet Eco-system_ 1. Financial benefits. 2. Better control, hence better utilisation.What will be controlled?3. Better utilisation, hence better productivity. 4. Better productivity, hence better cost. 5. Thus creating a cyclic effort over the financial benefits. Over and above: 1. ITU lets individual countries to manage their numbering systemDo we want to replicate the "old world" telephony system management processes for the Internet? The Internet has grown by international cooperation. The RIRs manage the distribution of address space. APNIC's existing NIRs participate in this distribution process. The RIRs don't give /8s to each country and tell them to get on with it.2. ICANN lets individual countries to manage their ccTLDs.Organisations responsible for managing ccTLDs have done so long before ICANN existed. The process is not top down as I think you are implying.3. Then what is illogical in NIR?I worry that there is a misunderstanding in what I've read so far as to what function an NIR is actually meant to perform. Hopefully you can clarify. :-) philip -- Message sent using India's leading Hosted Microsoft Exchange service. For details visit http://net4.in/hostedExchange Please consider the environment before printing. _______________________________________________ apnic-talk mailing list apnic-talk at lists dot apnic dot net http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-talk
|