Re: [GLOBAL-V6] Re: IPv6 Research/Not-for-profit Addressing

  • To: Christopher Martin <outsidefactor at iinet dot net dot au>
  • Subject: Re: [GLOBAL-V6] Re: IPv6 Research/Not-for-profit Addressing
  • From: Save Vocea <save at apnic dot net>
  • Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:36:42 +1000
  • Cc: global-v6 at lists dot apnic dot net
  • List-archive: <http://www.apnic.net/mailing-lists/global-v6>
  • List-help: <mailto:global-v6-request@lists.apnic.net?subject=help>
  • List-id: Discussion of new global IPv6 policy development <global-v6.lists.apnic.net>
  • List-post: <mailto:global-v6@lists.apnic.net>
  • List-subscribe: <http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/global-v6>, <mailto:global-v6-request@lists.apnic.net?subject=subscribe>
  • List-unsubscribe: <http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/global-v6>, <mailto:global-v6-request@lists.apnic.net?subject=unsubscribe>
    • Hi Chris,
      
      
      Thanks for raising these issues. Hopefully with this reply I can provide you with some information that can be useful to you.
      
      
      The next step is for us to acquire address space and an AS number so we can use the interconnection, however this is where we have hit issues. Our local IP addressing registrar, APNIC, is a purely commercial organisation and has
      no interest in assisting us, refusing to even let us plead our case.
      
      
      
      
      APNIC is the RIR for the Asia pacific and is not-for-profit, membership based organisation. Membership is open to anyone.
      
      
      I am sorry to read that you think APNIC has "no interest in assisting". We'd be more than happy to discuss the fees and other related matters with you. Please do not hesitate to contact us at <helpdesk at apnic dot net> or phone +61-7-3858 3188 or via live chat
      http://www.apnic.net/helpdesk/
      
      
      
      Our
      
      membership fees can cover the AU$1000 they charge for an AS number, but the AU$5000 per year membership fee required to get any sort of addressing is more than we can afford. The pricing structure of APNIC assumes you want IPv4 addressing, which we do not, and they have no options for IPv6 only.
      Given the vast unplumbed depths of IPv6 available this seems a little
      unfair.
      
      
      
      
      Please note that current APNIC members are assigned AS numbers for free as long as they meet the criteria. Non-member account holders on the other hand are charged USD500 (approx AU$670) for any assignment of an AS number. Thereafter a USD50 maintenance fee is charge annually.
      
      
      Each member of APNIC is not required to pay annual membership fee of the order of AU$5000 (approx. US$3750). APNIC has a tiered membership structure, with yearly fees in the associate tier starting at US$625. The majority of APNIC members are within the small membership tier. In the small membership tier, one can hold up to and including a /19 (8192 addresses) in IPv4 and a /32 in IPv6 which is equivalent to paying US$2500 (approx AU$3331) Follow this link for the current fee structure http://www.apnic.net/ member/feesinfo.html
      
      
      To obtain IPv6 addresses it is not necessary to already hold IPv4 addresses. The two allocation services are independent.
      
      
      All requests for Internet resources are treated equally, based on demonstrated need. This fundamental principle is the basis for the allocation services of all the 5 RIRs.
      
      
      
      Is there address space made available for research purposes, or is there
      space set aside for not-for-profit use?
      
      
      
      
      Address space is not specifically set aside for research purposes. However APNIC has an experimental allocations policy for experiments.
      More details in http://www.apnic.net/docs/policy/experimental-alloc.html
      
      
      All APNIC policies are developed by the APNIC community in a bottom up process of policy development. If you are unhappy with the current IPv6 policy you are very welcome to make a proposal for a new or modified policy. Details on how to do this are at:
      http://www.apnic.net/docs/policy/dev/index.html
      
      
      I am not sure if you are aware, but the next APNIC meeting is being held in conjunction with APRICOT <http://www.apnic.net/meetings/21/> and it would be great to see you there or if you are unable to make it, to see you participating remotely.
      
      Look forward to talking with you further
      
      Kind regards,
      Save
      
      --
      Savenaca Vocea,  Policy Development Manager,   <save at apnic dot net>
      Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
      
      http://www.apnic.net ph/fx +61 7 3858 3100/99 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------
      See you at APNIC 21!
      
      Perth, Australia, 27 Feb - 3 Mar, 2006 www.apnic.net/ meetings
      
      
      
      
      
      On 30/01/2006, at 10:09 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
      
      
      
      Hi Chris,
      
      
      I understand your perception, but honestly speaking, I think is wrong (and just in case, I'm not employed or anything similar by APNIC or any other
      RIR).
      
      
      The first point is that you should not use anymore 6Bone. It is being pashed
      out, and some carriers are already filtering this prefix.
      
      
      There is not any entity which can provide ASNs and IP (v4/v6) addresses
      beside the RIRs, and I don't feel they are "commercial" entities.
      
      
      The RIRs just execute the community policy and decisions, and that means that they can't decide to donate an ASN or IP prefix, unless the community
      agree on that. I'm sure they will be happy to tell you how to submit a
      
      request for a policy for those cases or something similar, but you should convince the community, which I'm not so sure will be so easy for your case.
      
      
      I'm also sure that there is a way to get IPv6 space even if you don't want
      IPv4 one, but my advise is to run dual stack in the LANs and your
      
      "interface" with your upstream providers, if you want to ensure that older
      apps which aren't ported still work (typically behind a NAT).
      
      
      It will be much easier to calculate the cost of the IPv6 prefix and ASN and make it part of your fixed/recurrent costs which you should get back with the fixed cost that you are going to charge to the network users, as I guess
      you will do with any other infrastructure costs or recurrent fees.
      
      
      An alternative may be to convince you upstream provider to get the ASN and prefix for you, with the issue that if you have more than one, you will not
      have a provider independent space.
      
      Besides those considerations, I will be very happy to support your
      initiative if any technical skills are needed.
      
      Regards,
      Jordi
      
      
      
      
      
      
      De: Christopher Martin <outsidefactor at iinet dot net dot au>
      Responder a: <ipv6-bounces at ietf dot org>
      Fecha: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:03:49 +1100
      Para: <ipv6 at ietf dot org>
      Asunto: IPv6 Research/Not-for-profit Addressing
      
      
      I am heading up a project to construct a community wireless network covering all areas of Australia that wish to participate, and we have reached the conclusion that any effort spent creating a universally routable network
      based on IPv4 is a doomed strategy.
      
      The project is being supported by the Australian Wireless Association
      
      (www.australianwireless.org), a not-for-profit member based organisation. At this stage we have arranged agreements with two Australian ISPs to allow us to interconnect with their IPv6 networks, one of which is 6bone connected. We are very happy with this situation, and have secured the access without any costs. We have also secured hardware to run as a border router to be
      co-located in the ISP's facilities.
      
      
      The next step is for us to acquire address space and an AS number so we can use the interconnection, however this is where we have hit issues. Our local IP addressing registrar, APNIC, is a purely commercial organisation and has no interest in assisting us, refusing to even let us plead our case. Our membership fees can cover the AU$1000 they charge for an AS number, but the AU$5000 per year membership fee required to get any sort of addressing is more than we can afford. The pricing structure of APNIC assumes you want IPv4 addressing, which we do not, and they have no options for IPv6 only.
      Given the vast unplumbed depths of IPv6 available this seems a little
      unfair.
      
      
      Is there address space made available for research purposes, or is there space set aside for not-for-profit use? Is there a registrar set up for
      research networks? We feel that we have something to offer the IPv6
      
      community, by both providing users a broadband path directly to 6bone, rather than through long distance tunnels, and as we plan to implement many links as purely IPv6 it provides a potential demonstration of the next
      generation of networks. It also will reveal any issues with IPv6 over
      wireless.
      
      
      The network will provide a fixed cost connectivity option for people who may not be able to afford the costs of regular broadband internet access. It also has a strong following amongst the enthusiast community, and provides a
      genuine opportunity to test IPv6 in the wild in a large network with
      potentially thousands of users. It will be a best effort system; with
      
      efforts made to build a meshed structure to provide redundancy as we expect the wireless links to fail regularly (wireless is an inherently less stable
      technology when compared to traditional wired networks).
      
      I hope someone in the IPv6 community has a suggestion or can help us.
      
      Chris Martin
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
      ipv6 at ietf dot org
      Administrative Requests: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      
      
      
      
      
      **********************************************
      The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org
      
      Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit
      Slides available at:
      http://www.ipv6-es.com
      
      
      This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited.
      
      
      
      _______________________________________________
      global-v6 mailing list
      global-v6 at lists dot apnic dot net
      http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/global-v6