Re: [apnic-talk] ICANN 49 event wrapup

    • To: Dave Mead <dave_mead at aim dot com>
    • Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] ICANN 49 event wrapup
    • From: Skeeve Stevens <skeeve at eintellegonetworks dot com>
    • Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 01:55:14 +1000
    • Cc: "apnic-talk at lists dot apnic dot net" <apnic-talk at lists dot apnic dot net>
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      • Dave,

        My only issue with Hanif's comments is that he has not attended any APNIC meetings that I know of or been actively involved in community or discussions until several days ago.... actually, this also goes for you as well Dave. ÂIt also isn't obvious what membership or interests you are representing.

        I would suggest that anyone who wants to have their comments and opinions taken seriously actually demonstrate a commitment to the community by attending the meetings, participating in discussions, seeking to be involved and getting to know how things work.

        Tell us a little about yourselves and why suddenly this involvement?


        Skeeve Stevens -Âeintellego Networks Pty Ltd
        The Experts Who The Experts Call
        Juniper - CiscoÂ- CloudÂ- ConsultingÂ- IPv4 Brokering

        On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 1:21 AM, Dave Mead <dave_mead at aim dot com> wrote:
        Indeed, we're discussing about the ASIA region as a whole and sharing national experiences to better understand the current situation for a healthy debate. I do not see Hanif emails and the context he is sharing with us is inappropiate for this discussion.

        -Dave Mead

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Skeeve Stevens <skeeve at eintellegonetworks dot com>
        To: haquehanif <haquehanif at hushmail dot com>
        Cc: APNIC TALK <apnic-talk at lists dot apnic dot net>
        Sent: Mon, Apr 28, 2014 8:07 am
        Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] ICANN 49 event wrapup

        A bit of advice to those who are interested in our community. ÂIf you profess an interest in Internet Governance you need to look to the interests of the regional as a whole, above and beyond your own local countries interests - or personal bias.

        This has to be said plainly. Those with nationalistic interests will never be taken seriously by the wider community. ÂWhen you care about the region or globe as a whole, a put the needs of the many above the needs of the few, others will respect you and what you say will be heard a lot louder than if you are constantly saying 'me me me'.


        Skeeve Stevens -Âeintellego Networks Pty Ltd
        skeeve at eintellegonetworks dot comÂ;Âwww.eintellegonetworks.comPhone: 1300 239 038;ÂCell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;Âskype://Â;Â
        xperts360:ÂÂ; blog:Â

        The Experts Who The Experts Call
        Juniper - CiscoÂ- CloudÂ- ConsultingÂ- IPv4 Brokering

        On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:41 PM, Â&lt;haquehanif at hushmail dot com&gt; wrote:
        Dear Rajesh,

        Thanks for steping in for me. I think we both very well understand the divide and rule principle that destroyed the relationship between our nations and us.

        Also, really thankful for your encouragment to discuss our issues.

        Hanif H Mohd
        Senior Network Consultant
        PKSP, Pakistan

        On Sunday, 27 April 2014 at 3:35 PM, "Rajesh Chharia" &lt;rc at cjnet4u dot com&gt; wrote:
        &gt;Dear Skeeve,
        &gt;Its not fair to take debates to insult any Country. Every country
        &gt;including yours has its own problem, without loosing a cricket
        &gt;match ;-).
        &gt;Hanif's view point is that we should review the location of APNIC,
        &gt;which is currently limited to Australia. In no way that is
        &gt;anything against Australia or can instigate someone to feel so
        &gt;Globally, same discussion has been going for ICANN. Do you think
        &gt;friends of ICANN are turning this debate to insult the
        &gt;sovereignties ?
        &gt;Why canât APNIC has an regional office in Islamabad or Dakha ? I
        &gt;think Hanif has taken up this discussion and to refer Aftab
        &gt;Siddiqui here is to sow difference between fellow countrymen and
        &gt;anyone can see through it.
        &gt;I feel instead of diverting this debate to such low level is not
        &gt;expected from you atleast. I have been seeing this concern for
        &gt;very long now and every time you have been responding which looks
        &gt;alike that APNIC has some problem here, I dont think that is the
        &gt;actual case. Its a strong body and need to have outreach program.
        &gt;Dear Hanif, advantage of such outreach program is for LEA as well
        &gt;as for the members also as its our LEA is well informed, it would
        &gt;be less botheration for we ISP's. ÂSimilarly, you are also right
        &gt;that training program are required in emerging economies.
        &gt;I am sure Paul and Akinori are competent to explain you the same.
        &gt;I sincerely apologise for any inadvertent nasty remark to your
        &gt;Please raise all concern at APNIC talk and be assured that APNIC
        &gt;as well as members would be responding positively.
        &gt;Best Regards,
        &gt;Rajesh Chharia
        &gt;+91 98110 38188
        &gt;On 27-Apr-2014, at 18:43 pm, Skeeve Stevens
        &gt;&lt;; wrote:
        &gt;&gt; Hanif,
        &gt;&gt; I think you need to talk to some of your fellow countrymen who
        &gt;have attended the APNIC meetings and seem to more clearly
        &gt;understand the value of APNIC, its operations and why it does what
        &gt;it does - better than you do.
        &gt;&gt; Pakistan is a dangerous place... you cannot deny that. ÂMy
        &gt;senior engineers here in Australia are from Pakistan and even they
        &gt;advise me that I should not travel to Pakistan as the chance of a
        &gt;negative incident against a white westerner is high... simply
        &gt;because we are white and they may assume we are American. ÂI have
        &gt;not been there, but I do trust the dozen people I know from
        &gt;Pakistan who say that it isn't wise to go to many of the areas in
        &gt;that country.
        &gt;&gt; APNIC used to be based in Japan, now Australia, maybe in the
        &gt;future somewhere else... who knows. ÂBut I think your assumption
        &gt;that the EC are biased is in your own mind as those with
        &gt;backgrounds from Australia, Nepal, China, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong,
        &gt;Taiwan are represented - with Australia, apart from the DG only
        &gt;have one (1) position. ÂIf anything, China (and related countries)
        &gt;are more represented than others. ÂSo please don't say that
        &gt;Oceania is over represented. ÂEvery single member of the EC has
        &gt;earned their position by being a valued member of Internet
        &gt;&gt; Even the staff of APNIC itself is significantly represented by
        &gt;those other than white Australia background.
        &gt;&gt; Pakistan also too has some great representatives in Internet
        &gt;Governance such as Aftab Siddiqui. ÂAs someone who is very much
        &gt;involved in the community and comes to the meetings, perhaps you
        &gt;should raise your concerns with him.
        &gt;&gt; The EC represent the ENTIRE region... including yours. ÂThey
        &gt;have 56 (54 active I think) economies across a large geographic
        &gt;area. ÂIt is funny those who have an issue only ever seem to have
        &gt;one about their own country not getting looked after enough.
        &gt;&gt; I suggest your criticism that the EC/APNIC is Oceania or
        &gt;Australian biased is not based in any reality, and if you have an
        &gt;issue, I'd suggest to actually come to a meeting and talk to
        &gt;people. ÂYou seem quite anti-Australia... maybe this is just a
        &gt;Cricket thing... are you still upset about the 5-0 loss in 2010? ;-
        &gt;&gt; ...Skeeve
        &gt;&gt; Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
        &gt;&gt; skeeve at eintellegonetworks dot com ;
        &gt;&gt; Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
        &gt;&gt; ;
        &gt;&gt; experts360:
        &gt;&gt; ; blog:
        &gt;&gt; The Experts Who The Experts Call
        &gt;&gt; Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
        &gt;&gt; On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:08 PM, &lt;haquehanif at hushmail dot com&gt; wrote:
        &gt;&gt; Skeeve,
        &gt;&gt; On Saturday, 26 April 2014 at 4:19 PM, "Skeeve Stevens"
        &gt;&lt;; wrote:
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;Hanif,
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;I rely on APNIC and its EC to consider the entire
        &gt;&gt; &gt;community/regions needs
        &gt;&gt; &gt;as opposed to a vocal minority... even if that minority was just
        &gt;&gt; &gt;me yelling
        &gt;&gt; &gt;about something. ÂWe choose an EC whose roles transcend their
        &gt;&gt; &gt;country
        &gt;&gt; &gt;and become for the good of everyone they represent.
        &gt;&gt; I am yet to understand who the EC is representing. For sure the
        &gt;EC is not representing Members by allowing APNIC staff travel in
        &gt;business class.
        &gt;&gt; I am also yet to understand if APNIC is for Asia and Oceania or
        &gt;just for Oceania. I think this RIR is for Oceania not Asia.
        &gt;&gt; Reasons:
        &gt;&gt; 1. Located in Australia (Oceania)
        &gt;&gt; 2. Headed by an Australian and 90% of its senior managemnt or
        &gt;the decision makers are from Oceania.
        &gt;&gt; 3. Follows Australian travel adversaries. No trainings or
        &gt;workshops here in Pakistan for last two years.
        &gt;&gt; 4. Contributes to the Australian work force
        &gt;&gt; So, I think it is an 'Australia' Pacifc Network Information
        &gt;Centre (APNIC) not Asia Pacific RIR.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;I think rather than accusations of mis-management, I'd spend
        &gt;&gt; &gt;time
        &gt;&gt; &gt;talking to members of the EC about why certain decisions are
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Most of
        &gt;&gt; &gt;them are more than willing to talk to you and give you their
        &gt;&gt; &gt;perspective -
        &gt;&gt; &gt;which btw, does not always agree across all EC members... Âbut
        &gt;&gt; &gt;most of the
        &gt;&gt; &gt;time they come to a consensus for the benefit of all members...
        &gt;&gt; We're talking now and hope the EC pay close attention to this
        &gt;&gt; Regards
        &gt;&gt; Hanif H Mohd
        &gt;&gt; Senior Network Consultant
        &gt;&gt; PKSP, Pakistan
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;...Skeeve
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
        &gt;&gt; &gt; ;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt; ;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&lt;;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;experts360:
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt; ; blog:
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;The Experts Who The Experts Call
        &gt;&gt; &gt;Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 11:26 PM, &lt;haquehanif at hushmail dot com&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Dave,
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Very good point but its a taboo at APNIC to discuss about
        &gt;&gt; &gt;Members fee and
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; APNIC (mis) management of funds. APNIC maintains a white list
        &gt;&gt; &gt;and a black
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; list of public contacts. You're now in their black list for
        &gt;&gt; &gt;raising this.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Like many others, this discussion will end up in the no
        &gt;&gt; &gt;road. The
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Executive council we selected are like the famous three wise
        &gt;&gt; &gt;monkeys."see
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". For our representatives
        &gt;&gt; &gt;business is
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; as usual.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; APNIC recently started providing training for law enforcement
        &gt;&gt; &gt;agencies
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; using Members funds....we did not blessed either. Its a good
        &gt;&gt; &gt;initiative and
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I personally commend APNIC for this. However, these LEAs are
        &gt;&gt; &gt;government
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; agencies and have big budgets. If LEAs request training APNIC
        &gt;&gt; &gt;must use LEAs
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; budget to provide such trainings not Members funds. Its just
        &gt;&gt; &gt;right!
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Regards
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hanif H Mohd
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Senior Network Consultant
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; PKSP, Pakistan
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Saturday, 26 April 2014 at 5:44 PM, "Dave Mead"
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&lt;dave_mead at aim dot com&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; wrote: Â ÂPaul,
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ÂYour speech at Asia Pacific Internet Leadership Program
        &gt;&gt; &gt;is
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; utterly disappointing to APNIC Members.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; You said, "...Members pay fees to APNIC to support the
        &gt;&gt; &gt;organisation and
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; the services and they don't give APNIC a blessing to spend
        &gt;&gt; &gt;money in
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; unlimited fashion on Internet development..."
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Â
        &gt;&gt; &gt;en.mp3
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ÂMembers DID NOT BLESS APNIC to spend the fees on business
        &gt;&gt; &gt;travel
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; which costs 3 times more than an economy class ticket. The
        &gt;&gt; &gt;entire senior
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; management, including your Executve Assistant and those who
        &gt;&gt; &gt;for APNIC
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; as consultants travel in business class contributing to the
        &gt;&gt; &gt;success of the
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; airlines but clearly not Internet development in this region.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ÂPaul, you're leading a not-for-profit organisation not a
        &gt;&gt; &gt;comerncial
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; entity that you and your senior management can erode member
        &gt;&gt; &gt;funds for your
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; comfortable travels across the world. This is just outrageous
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; mismanagement of Member funds.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ÂMembers like to see the Executive Council takes note of this
        &gt;&gt; &gt;and truely
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; represent the Members to better manage their funds to
        &gt;&gt; &gt;for the
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Internet development in this region. A lot of development work
        &gt;&gt; &gt;can be done
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; if the funds are managed effectively not use for personal
        &gt;&gt; &gt;benefits.
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ÂBest
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Â-Dave Mead
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
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