Dear Philip / Gentlemen, Philip --> Your comments on all the three mails you sent are apt. Leave apart NIR or no NIR in India, I am certain, the community cannot allow one to think NIR as "problem-solving" system for various non-relevant "domestic" problems, that ofcourse have no relevance to NIR. Financial benefit (for whom...for NIXI / INNIC or for Members!), better control (on ISPs or resources or members ??), better utilisation (of....?), productivity (irrelevant), infrastructure, training, etc are the tag words that do not appear in the tag cloud of NIR anywhere. I have known several ISPs that have been given more than /27 allocation by upstream. 6-7% speak English...! So does ISPs have routers, switches, servers that talk Hindi! India membership is one of the largest membership with APNIC.. I have never seen APNIC corresponding in Hindi... so how did these many members obtain resources already corresponding in English? Ofcourse, when one asks, APNIC did extend local support to many members. If financial benefit is what is looked at, I am sure every one understands that membership fee at APNIC is derived from Policy proposals and member voting... (Ofcourse, EC decision prevails) so, when India is the largest membership, it can float a policy, convince the community and get the same voted in favour! Even if 70% of the votes in India are exercised, it can make or break any policy! For that matter, any policy or to achieve anything from the above tag cloud, 70% of Indian members voting is enough. Approximately, India has 3000+ votes. Some question that possibly, if deemed were the solutions; do not get answered anywhere: If NIR is formed in India, will IP addresses be given free to encourage the ISPs? If NIR is formed in India, will the trainings be given free without associating with SANOG, APNIC, etc or inviting a speaker from abroad? That apart, What if tomorrow, NIR in India mandates issue of IP resources against irrelevant compliances of various licensing procedures in India? Is Indian community ready for that? <<Ofcourse, there are several classic examples in the past!>> Can some one demonstrate the capability of running NIR operations? (when we know that basic obligations such as assignment windows have not been filled by many!, leave apart contacts that never get updated on APNIC - JK1448-AP, SN200-AP and ND41-AP are shown as "contacts" for MAINT-IN-NIXI even today that were last updated 09/Dec/2005) Can Indian community decide the policies by establishing open-policy framework or does some at NIXI or DoT or Some other agency decides them? What will be the composition of the stake holders? Is that part of the Memorandum of Association and Articles of the proposed establishment / company / organisation? Who runs or heads NIR in India? Some one from ISP community? Government? Neutral entity? APNIC may let community know if such information is already available with them that may have been provided during the application. Beyond all those that are to be answered, can APNIC let the community know the financial implications of NIR in India since Indian membership contributes significantly to APNIC finances. Any projections for next 3 years if even 70% of the Indian membership moves to NIR in India in the next two years? I strongly feel that the purpose of NIR has not been fully understood unless someone has looked it at as a problem-solving solution for domestic problems. IP address resources are community owned and must remain community own by all means! They cannot be perceived as "control-infrastructure" or "problem-resolving-infrastructure". Greetings, Kusumba S Philip Smith wrote: Hi Desi, Desi Valli said the following on 20/11/09 18:17 :Cisco goes even to the level of 85% discount from their GLP. Impossible to listen to those numbers in westerns countries.Do you have any references for this? Do other vendors do the same thing?_Regarding Cross funding between IX/NIR_ NIXI is a NPO and it is mandated that the organisation cannot carry profits. That implies the fact that the surplus should be better utilised.If there is a surplus, it suggests that NIXI is making too much money. Why not reduce the prices instead, given that 'Indianisation' is so important?I disagree to the suggestion that things are to be separated. Internet is a field of convergence. No technology other than IP has enabled convergence in all possible areas thus improving productivity and optimal utilisation of resources & infrastructures. Suggesting to have independent operations, funding & resources of IX, registry and NIR, defeats many very purposes of Internet itself.Internet also abhors single points of failure. ;-)_Regarding the benefits for the Indian Internet Eco-system_ 1. Financial benefits. 2. Better control, hence better utilisation.What will be controlled?3. Better utilisation, hence better productivity. 4. Better productivity, hence better cost. 5. Thus creating a cyclic effort over the financial benefits. Over and above: 1. ITU lets individual countries to manage their numbering systemDo we want to replicate the "old world" telephony system management processes for the Internet? The Internet has grown by international cooperation. The RIRs manage the distribution of address space. APNIC's existing NIRs participate in this distribution process. The RIRs don't give /8s to each country and tell them to get on with it.2. ICANN lets individual countries to manage their ccTLDs.Organisations responsible for managing ccTLDs have done so long before ICANN existed. The process is not top down as I think you are implying.3. Then what is illogical in NIR?I worry that there is a misunderstanding in what I've read so far as to what function an NIR is actually meant to perform. Hopefully you can clarify. :-) philip -- _______________________________________________ apnic-talk mailing list apnic-talk at lists dot apnic dot net http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apnic-talk
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